Dharma Leaf 关于抑郁 by 朱倍贤|On depression by William Chu

截取自朱倍贤老师每周问答20210424,讯飞语音转录,有删改。
Excerpted from William Chu’s weekly Q&A 20210424, transcribed by Xunfei Voice, with omissions.


Q: ……心它自己运作,基本上想到的都是不好的心念,都是一些不喜欢不可意不悦乐的所缘。比如说我会沉迷于刷网上的视频,或者老是不起床,我都感觉在因为我要逃,我想逃避那些不可意的所缘……我用非我想去看它,就是说能够知道这不是我,这只是一个对象,就没有像以前那样完全陷进去,但是这种状态肯定会长期地不断地出现,就心还是比较困扰吧,想听听朱老师有没有什么好的建议。
Q: …The mind works on its own, and basically all that comes to mind is bad thoughts, things that I don’t like, things that are not pleasant. For example, I would be addicted to browsing online videos, or not getting up. I feel like I’m trying to escape. I want to escape from those undesirable mind objects… I use the “non-self cognition” to observe it, that is to say, I can understand that this is not me, this is just an object, so I’m not completely trapped as before, but this state will certainly continue to appear for a long time. My heart is still quite troubled. I would like to hear if Teacher Chu has any good advice.

A: 首先我们心态上面,像你刚刚所讲的,很多的人会指责你,而且很多的人他会因为point out the obvious,就会跟你讲一些,好像他们觉得再浅白不过、再明显不过的道理,你看干嘛那么想不开,干嘛那么的负面,他们会这样子讲。实际上抑郁症它是一个非常合理的一个反应,就是对人生是一个非常合理的反应。我说讲老实话。
A: First of all, in terms of our mindset. Like you just said, many people would blame you, and people would be like “point out the obvious”, telling you stuff, as if they think it is simple and obvious. They say look, why take things so hard? Why so negative? They will say this way. In fact, depression is a very reasonable reaction to life. Let me be honest.

什么叫对人生很合理的一个反应?随便就,不用讲很远,就是我们都会死,所以如果都会死的话,那么在一个程度上而言,我们所有的努力,我们所有的成就,我们所有的快乐,它都是很荒诞不经,然后它最终都是枉然的。然后而且呢,我们活在这个世界这个宇宙,它有千千万万种的方式可以摧毁你,千千万万种的方式可以危及你可以威胁你,而且这种方式它是无时不刻,它都在威胁着你。所以奇怪的不是你得抑郁症。奇怪的是,为什么其他的人不得抑郁症?
What does it mean by a very reasonable response to life? Without going very far, simply to say that we will all die, so if we all die, then to a certain extent, all our efforts, all our achievements, all our happiness, it is all very absurd, and then it is all in vain in the end. And then, we live in this world and this universe, it has millions of ways to destroy you, millions of ways to endanger you and threaten you, and it is threatening you this way all the time. So the strange thing is not that you get depression. The strange thing is that why other people don’t get depression.

正常人应该是,抑郁症应该是正常的,人能够对于他所处的这种状况好像……无动于衷,然后仍然能够醉生梦死地在那种很肤浅的、其实很没有滋味的那种欢乐当中,忘失掉自己的处境,那是很奇怪的一个事情。所以你不必要以一种好像说很特殊的眼光看待自己,而是讲说,我就是一个比起世间上很多的人更加合理地在对应这个世间。所以这个心态上你不要觉得说,这是一种问题,这是一种疾病,这个是一个好像说,让你变得比起其他的人更低一层的。不必要这样,完全不必要这样子想。
Normal people should be like, depression should be normal, and it is very strange that a person would seem to be indifferent to the situation he is in, and then still be able to get drunk and forget about his situation in that very superficial, in fact very tasteless kind of joy. So you don’t have to look at yourself in a special way, but rather say, I am a person who corresponds to this world in a more reasonable way than many people in this world. So you should not think that this is a problem, this is a disease, this is something that seems to make you inferior to other people. There is no need to think like that. No need to think like that at all.

可是呢在同时,我们的心并不是说它完全不受控制的。我们的心,它在很大程度上它真的是不受控制的,可是那个意识跟那个心啊,它那一种难以掌握的空间里面,它有一点点迂回的地方。我们的修行就是在这个一点点可以迂回的空间里面发生的。然后虽然它每一个刹那就是一点点而已,可是你如果你能够稳定住你的方向,然后坚持这个方向,它会改变掉一些习性。
But at the same time, our mind is not completely uncontrollable. Our mind, to a large extent, is really uncontrollable, but ah the consciousness and the mind, there is a little bit of detour in the space that is difficult to grasp. It is exactly within this little space of detour that our practice takes place. And although it is just a little bit per moment, if you can stabilize your direction and stick to that direction, it will change some habits.

我刚刚在讲说抑郁症它是一种对世间合理的反应,所以为什么要改变它呢?因为抑郁的时候难受,不舒服。纯粹就是为了这种务实的态度,并不是因为说,你是不正常的,所以你要改变它,你要变得像一般的人一样……你之所以要自我治疗,原因是因为抑郁是不舒服的,它是苦闷的。在这个程度上面要了解说,抑郁它是一种行为的回路。它是一个人的内心的一种惯性的回路。然后这种回路呢,你是可以又坚定、但又从容的状况之中慢慢地修改它。那么治疗抑郁症,或者是说你想要减缓抑郁症它所带来的苦患,这是一个很大的话题,就很多可以讨论的。
I was just talking about depression is a reasonable reaction to the world, so why change it? Because it’s difficult and uncomfortable when you’re depressed. It’s purely for this pragmatic attitude, not that you are abnormal, so you have to change it, you have to become like other people… The reason why you want to self-medicate is because depression is uncomfortable, it is distressing. To that extent it is necessary to understand that depression is a behavioral circuit. It is a circuit of inertia within the mind. And this circuit, you can slowly modify it with a firm, but calm attitude. So treating depression, or trying to alleviate the suffering caused by depression, is a big topic, and there is a lot to discuss.

……

其中的一个可以考虑的方向,也可以尝试可以去玩味的角度,一般的人他们在修学喜乐感,如果你想要把你抑郁的状态扭转成为喜乐的状态,那是强人所难的。可是呢,你可以在让自己在放松跟安静的状况当中,去体验淡泊中的滋味。这种淡泊,这种闲惬的滋味,它可能在你眼前的心情当中谈不上是喜乐。可是它里面有一种丰富,它里面有一种滋味。
One of the directions you can consider and try to ruminate is that, people in general are practicing experiencing joy, and if you want to turn your depressed state into a joyful state, it’s too much to ask. But you can experience the taste of equanimity in a relaxed and quiet state. This equanimity, this taste of idleness, it may not be joyful in your immediate mood. But there is a richness in it, there is a taste in it.

然后如果你的心不够安定的话,如果你不够安静的话,你会不容易去品味得到这个底下淡薄、但是丰富的滋味。你的心如果不够安定的话,你会不容易能够稳健地,长时间地,绵密地浸泡在这样的滋味当中。你会习惯性,因为你的天马行空,所以只是蜻蜓点水,接触到一点点,接触到一点点,然后马上你要再去寻觅其他滋味。你如果一直处在这种蜻蜓点水天马行空的状态,你会因为得不到稳健的不间断的滋补,你的抑郁症就会特别的严重。
And if your mind is not settled enough, if you are not quiet enough, you will not be able to easily savor this light, yet rich taste underneath. If your mind is not stable enough, it will not be easy for you to steadily, durably and densely immerse yourself in such a taste. You will habitually, because of your horse-rocketing-in-the-sky(天马行空), like a dragonfly skimming the surface of the water, just touching a little bit, touching a little bit, and then immediately you have to search for other tastes again. If you always stay in this slapdash horse-rocketing-in-the-sky state, your depression will be especially severe because you don’t get a steady and uninterrupted nourishment.

所以与其特别去强调开发喜乐,不如去强调开发平安,不如去强调在缓和下自己的动作的前提之下,去品味那个淡泊的、那个清淡如水的滋味。
So instead of emphasizing the development of joy, it would be better to emphasize the development of peace, to emphasize to savor that lightness, that clear water-like taste, under the premise of moderating one’s activities.

你可以考虑这一点,让自己缓和下来的方式不是要你压制,而是要你感觉到轻松,它是一个比较容易的状态。知足它是一个比较容易的状态。你那个天马行空,它实际上是一个很耗力气的,可是因为你根深蒂固的惯性,所以你会觉得说,那个才是对的,那个才是自然的。其实不是的。偶尔你甚至只是短暂时间,去看得到你在天马行空的时候它的用力,然后在片刻、片刻当中去体会到用力的缓解,来让自己沉淀下来。
You can consider this, the way to ease yourself down is not to suppress, but to feel relaxed. It is an easily accessible state. Contentment is an easily accessible state. That horse-rocketing-in-the-sky, it’s actually a very exhausting state, but because of your deep-rooted inertia, you feel as if that’s the right one, that’s the natural one. Actually it’s not. Even for a short period of time, you can see how exerting it is when you are horse-rocketing-in-the-sky, and you experience the alleviation of the exertion during little moments, to let yourself settle down.

Q: 老师您说的天马行空是指的是什么?
Q: What do you mean by horse-rocketing-in-the-sky, teacher?

A: 你看,你说划手机,也是为了要逃避,那个就是一种天马行空。就是说你划手机,你要逃避眼前这种抑郁的不舒服的感觉。可是呢,划手机你看到的画面、你得到的娱乐,它可能就是一下子,然后你很快会觉得说抑郁它又追上你来了,你必须要再划下一个银幕,你必须要再去找下一个节目,才勉强能够找得到逃离。然后这个逃离那就是短短的片刻,然后你必须要忙碌地一直寻觅着下一个动作,下一个动作,下一个动作……这是一种天马行空。这是一种很忙碌的,然后你在这种忙碌当中,你的抑郁不容易得到缓解,那种郁闷的感觉不容易得到缓解。它如果要缓解的话,你是必须要在相对少的动作当中,却能够得到隽永的滋味。你要往这个方向去发展。
A: You see, you say that your swiping the phone is to escape, that is a kind of horse-rocketing-in-the-sky. That is, your swiping the phone, is a way to escape the uncomfortable feeling of the depression in front of you. However, the images you see on the phone, the entertainment you get, it might be just a moment, and then you will soon feel that depression has caught up with you again, and you have to swipe the next screen, you have to search for the next program, just barely able to find an escape. And then this escape is only a short moment, and then you have to be busy looking for the next move, the next move, the next move… This is a kind of horse-rocketing-in-the-sky. It is a very busy state. When you are in that busy state, your depression is not easy to get relieved, that gloomy feeling is not easy to get relieved. If you want relief, you have to get a lasting taste in relatively few movements. You need to go in that direction.

……

检查一下欲界它有什么样的特质,然后欲界其中一个特质就是,你的动作要很复杂,你要很忙碌,要不然的话欲界提供给你的逃避的感觉一下就中断了,你马上会不舒服的。你必须要赶快再去找下一个活动,所以这是很忙碌。
Examine the qualities of Desire Realm, and one of the qualities of Desire Realm is that your movements have to be very complicated, you have to be very busy, otherwise the feeling of escape which Desire Realm offers you is interrupted at a stroke, and you will be immediately uncomfortable. You have to hurry to find the next activity, so it’s very busy.

你会人一直处在那种高度不休息的状态。然后欲界提供给你的养分,它就是一点点,一点点,它吊起你的胃口来。然后你会对那个一点点,一点点,感觉到很不满足,所以你有很多的得失心。你会感觉到你很忙,你会很多的害怕,因为你觉得世间我想要的东西,那么容易就会没有了。我需要很多,我需要囤积很多,我必须要透过很多的手段来让它能够稳稳地供应我要的。
You will be in that heightened state of restlessness all the time. And the sustenance provided by Desire Realm is just a little bit, a little bit. It whets your appetite. And you will feel very unsatisfied with that little bit, little bit, therefore you have a lot of gain-and-loss mind. You’ll feel like you’re busy and you’ll have a lot of fear because you feel like all the things I want in the world, so easily they will be gone. I need a lot, I need to accumulate a lot, and I have to go through a lot of means so that it can supply steadily what I want.

欲界的特质是这样,所以你的欲求会变得特别的强大,你的得失心会变得特别的强大。你人的欲求跟得失心强大,你就不会安静下来,你就不会省力。如果你不安静下来,不省力,你就没有办法得到那种隽永的高品质的休息,高品质的那种自我滋补的方法。
Such is the nature of Desire Realm. And your desire will become especially strong and your gain-and-loss mind will become especially strong. If your desire and your gain-and-loss mind is strong, you will not be able to quiet down, you will not be able to save your energy. If you don’t quiet down, if you don’t save your energy, you won’t be able to get that lasting, high-quality rest, that high-quality method of self-nourishment.

你只要能够得到高品质的、稳健的、自我滋补的方法,就算没有明显的喜乐,你也不会抑郁。你会发现到说,平安宁静当中它有非常丰富的滋味。丰富的滋味,你是很难讲出它的底在哪里,或者你很难讲出它的天花板在哪里的。
Even if there is no obvious joy, as long as you can get a high-quality, steady, self-nourishing method, you will not be depressed . You will find that there is a great richness in peace and tranquility. It is very difficult to tell where the bottom of that taste of richness is, or where the ceiling is.

Translated with http://www.DeepL.com/Translator with amendments.

Dharma Leaf 探索更高明的寻乐方法 by 朱倍贤|Exploring a more sophisticated way to seek out fun by William Chu

截取自20210417开示
Excerpted from the 20210417 dharma talk.


你是以这样的心情在探索佛法的:什么样是更高明的寻乐方法?

……

受念住它的原理,它的内在的逻辑就是这样子,透过了解你怎么样在寻乐,透过去观察、去理解、去享受那种高的品质的乐,然后使得你能够用越来越有效率、越来越省力的方法,得到越来越大程度、越来越长久的满足感。

然后在这样的过程里面,你会慢慢地趋入、了解到,真正最大的快乐,它跟你复杂的计划是无关的,跟你用力的‘抓’是无关的。真正最高的快乐,它是跟放下,它是跟省力,它是跟遂顺真理,是跟遂顺你的心的本质有关的。

This is the attitude that you take when exploring the Dharma: what is the better way to find happiness?

This is the principle, the inner logic of Vedananupassana satipatthana (Mindfulness of feelings): by understanding how you are seeking happiness, by going through the process of observing, understanding, and enjoying that higher quality of happiness, then you will be able to gain a growing degree and more and more lasting satisfaction, in an increasingly efficient and effortless way.

And during this process, you will slowly come to understand that the greatest happiness has nothing to do with your complicated plannings, nor with your hard ‘grasping’. The highest happiness has to do with letting go, with effortlessness, with surrendering to the truth, to the nature of the heart.

Translated with http://www.DeepL.com/Translator with amendments.